Internet Radio Versus FM broadcast Audio Quality EQ Related

Don't stream but can offer some explanation......your audio is from the same source, the mixer, BUT the audio is affected by what it's playing through. The freq. response of the transmitter and the way it's equalized isn't the same as a computer as you hear it streaming. The sound is going through two different mediums. Also is different on air depending what type of radio or stereo you have. Simply, your transmitter is boosting the bass and may be set at 50uS and the computer has less response in the bass.

Very logical to need different settings for the on air feed and computer feed.

Mark

I disagree with both of you.

Before I post an opinion on the subject it will be interesting to see what others say about these questions.

Just a small comment... doing things the wrong way is sometimes instructive, that is, learning through trial and error; but it can also lead deeper into confusion.

There's nothing wrong with being short on technical knowledge... I ran a professional recording studio with clients and income for several years before I ever learned the method for converting from unbalanced to balanced audio lines.

The business of learning how to equalize an audio chain was luckily learned by observing how trained electronics engineers did it in the recording and transmitting studios of an FM station.

Ok everybody... strut your stuff.

Transmitter is a Ramsey FM100 kit, built and designed for USA 75us pre-emphasis and is also FCC part 15.239 compliant.

Please do not confuse it with the FM100B, this is the earlier model FM100 transmitter.

http://radiopics.com/1.%20Manuals/Ramsey/FM100.pdf

Bruce.

In determining the audio bandpass (frequency response) of your audio signal chain from source to end, the FM pre-emphasis is not counted as an equalization stage.

Having the wrong preemphasis, such as European 50 uS in the U.S., does not boost the bass. The wrong preemphasis or no preemphasis will result in rolled off high frequencies, causing a dull sound, but the bass remains unchanged.

With normal 75 uS preemphasis there is a matching deemphasis in the FM receiver that puts the frequency right back to being  the same as it would be through an audio cable.

The reason the preemphasis/deemphasis system exists in the FM transmission is noise reduction.

Stand by for more audio info.

When your audio is routed properly you should send exactly the same feed to both the FM transmitter and the stream encoder.

The 3-Band EQs on the Behringer Mixer should all be zero/centered for no boost or cut.

You have given no details about the output properties.... balanced, unbalanced, line levels, which line goes to what...

More to come.

Carl hit me up with all the info you need.

The mixer does have an EQ bypass on each channel.

I had Station8 listening to the stream a month ago when he was still active in this hobby, when the 3 EQs were at their center positions, he felt the MIDs and HIGHs were too dominate and the BASS (the lows) were totally lacking.

What I need is help from an outsider who can listen to the stream and advise me of the condition of the quailty from another point on the internet.

The stream is on the RCA jack type (line type) channel 2 output of the mixing board, the output from channel 2 goes directly into the computer that the stream is carried on via a computer sound card set up as the "record" sound card.

The computer has two sound cards, one is the playback card, the other the record card.

No EQ is being used on the computer, on either sound card.

The playback card feeds the mixer's input on channel 5, once the audio passes through the mixer, the audio via channel 2 output, goes back to the original computer and in through the record sound card back into the computer system.

The use of BUTT software (Broadcast Using This Tool)  https://sourceforge.net/projects/butt/ allows my stream to broadcast to the server it is carried on, where is is then carried at 192K 48000Hz MP3 Stereo.

The transmitter if I was to use such, would be carried over the balanced XLR connectors, to an audio processor, if I chose to use one. I have 3 possible hardware compressor/limiters to use, if I so choose go that route.

The Ramsey FM100 is not intended to be a neighborhood broadcast unit, I simply want it for around the house radio listening and listening on my FM radio tuner head phones for live broadcasts. The internet always has a delay.

As for the 75us pre-emphasis, I wanted Mark to know that the pre-emphasis on this unit is set to 75us when built according to the instruction manual that came with the unit.

The mixer has 3 outputs, only two allow the microphone to appear on the output, channel 2 and the XLR outputs. The tape out carrys everything except the microphone audio, not sure why, but the tape out on the mixer must pick up the mixers audio before microphone cicuits, it also line level output, no controls on the mixer effect the "tape out" level anyways.

Bruce.

Good MrBruce we will keep tracking this situation until I can draw a map for myself of how you  are wired.

I'll start back up tomorrow morning and prepare the next batch of questions and suggestions to get your audio right.

Anyone else who has thoughts I'll enjoy seeing those along the way.

You mentioned a muddy sound.

But this may or may not be the reason for the EQ difference you are getting but the same audio feed EQed the same way won't come out the same when played through two different things...an on air transmitter and over the internet when the finals in the audio chain can color the sound their own way(the computer or the transmitter), or the internet stream itself.

Two different models of speakers can sound different even though it's the same record, same song, same amp, same bass mid and treble setting for example.

Just my opinion based on logic, and personal experience, not engineering expertise.

Mark

Very good Mark, appreciate any input I get.

I am curious how some of you who source the same material over the internet and on the broadcast band at the same time are doing it.

I am trying to describe how my system is hooke dup without posting a drawing, mama never passed the artist gene down on me, I can't draw for squat!!

I have other equipment hooked up to the mixer, but the stream is mostly automated ran and don't feel adding those into the mix here helps, except to add more confusion.

I am not trying gain internet listeners from here, but sometimes I need several people with several sets of ears to listen while I make adjustments. Some say the internet feed lacks base, but has too much MIDs and HIGHs.

Of course live music is the most troublesome to work with compared to studio recordings.

I am trying to decide of it is best to add two separate EQs and adjust each one to accommodate the source it feeds.

Okay for what is worth this is the feed, again EQ settings are HIGH is at 10 O'Clock, MID is at 10 O'Clock and LOW is at 2 O'Clock.

WINAMP

http://s25.myradiostream.com:9672/listen.pls

WINDOWS MEDIA PLAYER

http://myradiostream.com/25/9672.asx

VLC/OTHER PLAYERS

http://s25.myradiostream.com:9672/listen.m3u

MOBILE DEVICE/CELL PHONE LINK

http://myradiostream.com/mobile/WFPN

TUNEIN LINK

http://tunein.com/radio/WFPN-AOR-s266081

Or

http://myradiostream.com/WFPN

Bruce.

Just tuned you in at 1:25 AM Apr. 20/16

Color my world was playing by Chicago and it sounded fine to me.

Of course no bass can be heard in the laptop speakers although it was mellow even in the tiny speakers. So I fed the sound through a Bose Soundlink bluetooth speaker which also has direct audio line in which has very good audio quality and no tone controls and sounded very good with good bass and treble....nothing really overpowering. Then I played it through a Tivoli Audio PAL and it sounded good too.....the PAL has no tone control of it's own either.

Using an older IBM Think Pad laptop and the computer's own bass and treble settings for some reason are not settable so it's the way the sound card is EQed.

But the point as I was making before....I can play it from my computer into 10 different things and it will sound as good as what it's being played through.

But didn't seem like anything was lacking.

Mark

Have you tried feeding the stream with an FM radio?

Another thing you mentioned was the mixer having XLR and RCA outputs. How are you feeding the transmitter and computer? Which Connections?

At Mark

The sound you hear now is with the mixer EQ settings set to have more BASS than MIDs and HIGHs. The EQs are not at 0dB, BASS is at 2 O'Clock, MID and HIGH at 10 O'Clock.

When those controls were at 0dB, station8 said the MIDs and Highs were over kill, can't remember exactly how he described it, but he told me to decrease the MID and HIGH and increase the BASS. Damned if I can remember his exact description of what annoyed him with the audio quality with the EQs at 0dB or by-passed.

mighty1650 Said:

Have you tried feeding the stream with an FM radio?

MrBruce Said:

I have thought of trying that, just have never hooked it up that way. It's worth a try. You never know, it just might sound okay.

mighty1650 Said:

Another thing you mentioned was the mixer having XLR and RCA outputs. How are you feeding the transmitter and computer? Which Connections?

MrBruce Said:

The transmitter would be via the XLR connectors. I have 3 conductor cables on those XLR connectors, the RCA jack outputs are being used for the internet stream.

Let me try to explain, my station for now is totally automated, via a computer runing Zara Radio. This computer has stereo based sound cards, that have 3/8" tip, ring, shield jacks, the male 3/8" plug is on one end of an audio cable, plugged into the sound card that is designated as the PLAYOUT sound card in Windows XP's audio properties.

This audio cable carries the LEFT and RIGHT stereo channels coming out of the computer, this port would commonly have a set of computer speakers plugged into it. This cable is plugged into my mixer on channel 5. I have a 5 channel mixer. Channel 5 is used as the automated program feed input.

Channels 1 and 2 are turntables, channels 3 and 4 are tape input and CD input, but ignore those for now, as I am not using those pieces of hardware unless I do a live DJ show.

This mixer has 2 microphone inputs for LIVE announcing, please refer to the owners manuals I linked to earlier, to help me avoid posting too much un-needed info.

Those audio cables from the computer feed into a set of LEFT/RIGHT RCA jacks on the mixer called channel 5. Channel 5 can be a LINE or CD input depending on the switch setting for that channel. I use LINE as the input option for the computer input audio to the mixer board.

The Automated audio is now at a stage in the mixer where the trim, EQ and slider controls the audio, from there it passes into the final mixer output where the microphone can be added to the mix.

The output is split between the balanced XLR LEFT/RIGHT output and the unbalanced RCA jacks of output number two. Output number 2 has it's own volume control called Volume 2, this controls the audio level of the RCA jacks.

The mixer is set up like this so a DJ can control the audio in one part of a night club, but have it different in the other half of the same night club. Thats the purpose of the two independent outputs. 

The MAIN output XLR also has a volume control called volume 1. This volume adjusts the audio output to the XLR balanced outputs only.

"Tape out" located on the back side of the mixer is line level audio only, there are no controls that change this output and the mixers microphone audio does not pass through its circuitry for some reason. I have thought of using this tape output, but it won't work well when I do live on microphone announcements, because the microphone audio is not heard on this output.

The RCA jack output 2 is feeding an unbalanced stereo audio cable, that returns back the the automated computer, through a second stereo computer sound card, designated as the RECORD sound card in Windows XP's audio properties.

Again, for clairity, one sound card is the PLAYOUT and the other sound card the RECORDING input device.

Now the automated Zara Radio music is back in the originating computer that played it. Purpose of all of this is so when I play a record on a turntable, that music is feed directly from the turntable into the mixer and out into the computer I was just describing.

Now, this is what happens once the audio from the mixer and any of the audio producing hardware I have goes in with it. I use BUTT software, it is set to play any sounds the computer has via the RECORD device.

Since the sound card is designated as the record device any sounds it records so to speak, BUTT passes that audio out onto the stream URL I have it programmed to stream to.

BUTT software allows me to do off computer production, where most people are stuck doing all production off of the same computer using various types of automated software, such as RadioDJ, SAM and Station Play List.

From this point, my audio is feed via the internet to an off site server as internet station WFPN.

I do not use breakaway software actively, even though I do possess legal copies of the cheap version and although there is a free computer based EQ called RTEQ for short on that computer, I do not actively use that or any other EQ type software on my stream audio.

Hope this claers things up  a bit, but I am welcome to any questions in an attempt to get better suggestions and answers.

Hopefully I typed this with minimum typos, because I have no time to correct them, must run.

Have a great morning everybody!!

Bruce.

Hi MrBruce... I am on the job and very glad you posted those links...

I am listening now on VLC Player and transmitting the signal on 89.9 MHz so I can try it on several receivers.

I LOVE the way it sounds!

Based on all the words you posted up until now I was expecting a lot of audio problems, but it sounds great!

The lyrics are crisp, clear, very easy to hear and they jump out with a "live" quality.

Percussion instruments have a life-like ring and punch the way they would at an actual live performance.

There is a sense of deep low end, it does not sound lacking or over-driven.

However you've got it... IT WORKS!

In the quick instant between songs there is no buzz or hum in the audio... it goes to perfect silence.

I have a policy... when something is going well, DON'T IMPROVE IT.

I'll keep listening for awhile!

MINUTES LATER... MORE -- I heard MrBruce do a station ID... the mic sounded "live" and very natural.

HOLD ON! WAIT A MINUTE!... Are you making changes? On this song (Watch Yoiur Heart After Dark) the highs are rolled off and it sounds like the station is coming from a tunnel.

Maybe too many cooks in the kitchen?

Here's what I know.

FWIW I personally do not stream my Part 15 AM on the internet.  I do however feed the audio to the local cable TV system.  I feed them an off air signal from my Procaster, which is received on a commercial Dayton Industries AM monitor receiver.  This receiver is also in my studio which is about 20 feet from my transmitter, so no typical AM noise or interference is picked up.  I do this because then the TV feed gets the benefit of the processing that is built in to my transmitter.  So the eq, compression, limiting, etc never varies.  It sounds fine on all TV's I've listened to it on.  Obviously big entertainment systems with bigger speakers have more bass response, but nothing sounds crappy.

At the commercial stations I work for we do things differently.  Our FM station streams the internet by feeding it off an FM monitor receiver.  In this way the FM internet stream has the same processing and quality as our air signal.  Levels are good, and it sounds kick ass. As a pair of stations that are live but don't always have someone "riding the gain" the processing keeps everything sounding smooth and equal.

On our AM station we feed the audio stream right off the air console.  Simple because we would have occasional static and interference by sending the AM air signal out on the stream. In addition, our AM air signal is mono of course, but we send a stereo signal on the stream.  And naturally the frequency response is not limited by AM radio, the amplified and equalized phone line that takes our audio to the transmitter, and the NRSC rules. So out AM stream sounds much better than on the air. However it's got ZERO processing which mostly creates level issues where there are extreme differences in source material. But it's worked fine for years.

Any processing and eq should happen once, and at the point the audio enters the transmitter/stream.  EQ settings on mixers should ALWAYS BE AT ZERO. Note that there are NO processional broadcast mixers or consoles that have eq controls on them. That's fine in the production studio where the audio is created. And maybe in a dedicated mic preamp unit. But you shouldn't be eq-ing things in the air mixer.  At our stations, we're running the audio through several thousands of dollars or orban equipment at the transmitters.  Why the hell would we want to screw with it at the studio end too?  We don't even run mic pre-amps or compressor/limiters etc in the studios.  The air processor handles that. WE have decdne mics, an RE20 in the FM and a MXL condensor in the AM (which in all reality gives us broader spectrum sound than the station can even trasnmit).

Also really judge your eq by listening. I would make it sound good on the air, then feed the air signal to your stream. then it takes advantage of any processing you have in your transmitter chain. i'm betting when you compare audio air vs. stream you're not listening on the same speakers through the same systems. The frequency response of different listening sources can be dramatically different.  If you pump more bass into the stream, it's gonna sound crappy on the air, simply because an FM radio will reproduce more bass that computer speakers, or earbuds, etc.  The variables are endless and you'll be chasing it forever. 

Use an audio spectrum analyzer if you must.  Wee what response you're getting on the air, and compare it to what you're getting in the stream.  Don't use speakers.  Feed the audio directly.  You can see the response.  There are free SA apps for audio for most smart phones. Check the audio at the feed point to the transmitter and computer, check it again off the air and off the stream and see what you get. With all tone and loudness/filter etc controls at neutral or off.

in my opinion too many people want to eq things that don't need it. The music was eq'ed when it was recorded and mastered. Who are you to decide that it needs more bass, or treble? who are you to decide what your listeners are listening on? A good listening system doesn't need much if any tweaking, and a listener can decide for themselves if they want more bass, etc. They have their own tone controls or eq on their stereos, radios, phones, computers, etc. Don't try to make it sound good for tinny computer speakers as then it will sound like crap on a good speaker. Send out a good, neutral audio feed and let the listener tweak it. 

FWIW

TIB