After many searches I have found no part 15 radio program for stations with a ‘Country’ format. Soooooooooooo, I’ve decicided to try to create one. Here is my scheme…
Title:n/a
Length:1 or 2 hours
Air Time: Weekly
How to Recieve: download
Summary: A Radio Program playing the best country music from the 50’s to the early 90’s. You’ll hear Singers Like: Randy Travis, Alan Jackson, George Gones, Loretta Lynn, Clint Black, Dolly Parton, Porter Wagoner, John Anderson, Buck Owens, and many, many more.
After many searches I have found no part 15 radio program for stations with a ‘Country’ format. Soooooooooooo, I’ve decicided to try to create one. Here is my scheme…
Title:n/a
Length:1 or 2 hours
Air Time: Weekly
How to Recieve: download
Summary: A Radio Program playing the best country music from the 50’s to the early 90’s. You’ll hear Singers Like: Randy Travis, Alan Jackson, George Gones, Loretta Lynn, Clint Black, Dolly Parton, Porter Wagoner, John Anderson, Buck Owens, and many, many more.
Please Give me Feedback about this. I also need some suggestions on how to send out downloads since I know nothing about the technical side of this. Also, I have dial-up, which may affect the future of this.
wdcx says
Re: A new part 15 radio program in the works…
[quote=T.ALLRED]After many searches I have found no part 15 radio program for stations with a ‘Country’ format. Soooooooooooo, I’ve decicided to try to create one. Here is my scheme…
Title:n/a
Length:1 or 2 hours
Air Time: Weekly
How to Recieve: download
Summary: A Radio Program playing the best country music from the 50’s to the early 90’s. You’ll hear Singers Like: Randy Travis, Alan Jackson, George Gones, Loretta Lynn, Clint Black, Dolly Parton, Porter Wagoner, John Anderson, Buck Owens, and many, many more.
Please Give me Feedback about this. I also need some suggestions on how to send out downloads since I know nothing about the technical side of this. Also, I have dial-up, which may affect the future of this.
[/quote]
I think there is a Part 15 station in Tallahassee, Fl that does country. I think he’s a Part15.us member as well. However, good luck in your new project.
T.ALLRED says
What I meant was…
I know there are many part 15 country stations, I think the man who has a part 15’er in Tallahassee is Alan McCall. What I meant was creating a ‘syndacated’ radio show for part 15 stations that play country. Hope I got everything straightened out.
Travis Allred,
AM 1570 WHTR
mram1500 says
Permissions
by MRAM 1500 kHz
So how does BMI, ASCAP, etc., figure into a program like you propose?
Would the affiliates have to pay a fee to air the material or is that covered?
Some threads elude to the thought that Part 15 users aren’t pushed to pay but certainly are encouraged to do so. Others quote sources that claim litigation for failure to do so.
Our station runs local talent originals and the musicians are satisfied just to know their music is being heard somewhere.
DB52 says
Re: Permissions
[quote=mram1500]by MRAM 1500 kHz
So how does BMI, ASCAP, etc., figure into a program like you propose?
Would the affiliates have to pay a fee to air the material or is that covered?
Some threads elude to the thought that Part 15 users aren’t pushed to pay but certainly are encouraged to do so. Others quote sources that claim litigation for failure to do so.
Our station runs local talent originals and the musicians are satisfied just to know their music is being heard somewhere.[/quote]
In this case it would be up to the broadcaster (the one who downloads and airs the show) to pay the fees.
DB52
jerry robert mason says
About The Music Licensing
I like the idea of mp3ing the show for download and password protecting the download. You can also put the show on CD and send it out to interested stations. If they run the show they are responsible for paying the music rights. And here’s another idea, think about finding a sponsor who would like to run advertising on your show obviousley after you have the show on enough stations you can put together a map to the respective sponsor where the show would be heard, then the sponsor could decide if they wanted your locations.
Best Regards,
Jerry R. Mason ex PD/Consultant & Full Power Station Owner…
Greg_E says
So wading through all this
So wading through all this still leaves a little ambiguity, but I guess I’ll have to sort some of that out on my own. But if a place (like our college station) already pays a blanket to BMI, ASCAP, SESAC, and RIAA, that should allow us to distribute any shows that our students produce for syndication, right? I bring this up because some of our pre-produced shows wil be pretty good, so it would be a real thrill for those students to be able to receive a wider range of listeners. I need to check on our RIAA payments before we get our stream back on the web, so I think it might be a good idea to ask them about this to get an “official” ruling. Looking into our RIAA payments is this week’s work, so it should come back in a timely manor.
cairn says
Sorry, it’s illegal
Man, I hate being the one to squash someone’s good idea but, unfortunately, it would be illegal for you to do this. The reason it would be illegal is that you would be offering the program for download. That means that you would essentially be distributing (as in, making copies and making them available for download) works for which you do not hold the copyright (the music). The RIAA just loves to sue people who make music available for download.
Now, if instead of making it available for download, you decide to stream your program with the intention of allowing part 15 stations to broadcast your stream, it would be legal only if you pay the Sound Exchange fees for the right to stream the content and if the stations have the BMI/ASCAP/SESAC license to broadcast that music. Of course you are only responsible for the Sound Exchange fees, you don’t have to know (or care, for that matter) if anyone on the receiving end is paying their fees to broadcast legally. The disadvantage of doing it this way is that stations can’t download your program to play whenever they want; they’ll have to just play your stream as you are streaming it (which means they’ll have to be using an internet-connected computer as an audio source to their transmitter). Streaming is also generally at lower audio quality then what you might make available for download but that’s up to you. If you’re on dial-up though, you’ll need to pay for a streaming host and you’ll also probably be at pretty low quality.
You’ve got a good idea and a lot of enthusiasm so I’d like to echo what mram1500 wrote and suggest that you get in touch with some local talent. If a local band (or any band) gives you permission to broadcast, stream, make available for download, distribute, etc. their music, then you don’t need to pay fees to anyone and it is all perfectly legal. I would just recommend that you get the bands permission in writing; you never know, they might make it big!
dat says
Not exactly…
Well not exactly cairn-
I am sorry to have to disagree with you, but my company SRP Radio and many others- Premiere, United Stations, etc, distribute their programs this way. (Check out my show: http://www.AmericasGreatestHits.com)
I think that, if you password protect the folder, you’ll be fine. I have owned other full-power terrestrial radio stations and had to download much of my programming. The stations who take America’s Greatest Hits Worldwide have to do the same.
If you advertise to the general public that they can listen to the show via your website, pay the fees. IF you use the site as a way to distribute the show and make every effort to eliminate listening by “just anyone”, you should be fine.
You are correct- stations pay the fees.
However, part 15 stations are REQUIRED to pay all music licensing fees. BMI, ASCAP & SESAC have special licenses for this. In fact, if you own a small cafe and play a radio station that your customers can hear, you have to pay music licensing. They are very unforgiving for this. As a part 15 broadcaster, you can bet they want your money.
Hope this helps!
Dave
Surfside 1640 Radio
http://www.Surfside1640.com
SRP Radio
http://www.AmericasGreatestHits.com
cairn says
Clarification
Hi Dave-
No need to appoligize, I’m glad you voice your disagreement, it’s how we all learn! I was assuming that t.allred would be making the program freely available and hadn’t considered a password protected directory available only to “affiliates.” I agree with everything you said except for, “I think that, if you password protect the folder, you’ll be fine.” I believe that any digital copy or distribution of copyrighted music requires a license to make that duplication. This is regardless of how that copy is distributed; whether you e-mail the program to a close friend, mail it on a CD, or put it in a password protected web directory for subscribers, you are making a digital copy and US Copyright Law says that you need to be licensed to do that, even if you don’t make a single penny from your program. If there is some exemption to this to allow producers to distribute copyrighted content to broadcast stations on a subscription basis without paying the licensing fees, then I would love to hear about it and have my previous sentence proved wrong!
I completely agree with you that part 15 broadcasters have to pay licensing fees to ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC just like everyone else, regardless of whether you profit from your station or not. But to clarify what I said in my previous post, t.allred is not responsible for whether or not the stations that run his program pay their licensing fees. He may ask them if they are licensed to broadcast the music but it is not his responsibility to verify that. Also, part 15 stations (or any other stations) are not required to pay ASCAP, BMI or SESAC fees if they obtain their licenses through other means (like if they negotiate a license with each band that they play on the air as in my post above or if they don’t play any copyrighted music at all). If you don’t pay the ASCAP, BMI or SESAC fees though, you better be damn sure you are legally entitled to broadcast the music you play – get it in writting!
As always, please point out any mistakes in my post or my understanding of the subject.
kk7cw says
ASCAP, SESAC PART 15 FEES ?
Dave,
Could you direct me to the web site or source that says if there are fees and how much they are for SESAC and ASCAP. The reason I ask, is that I have asked them outright and have been informed they do not have a structured license fee for Part 15 “hobby radio”. I would like to have the info you have and so would several other folks, I’m sure.
Note: BMI does suggest Part 15 community broadcasters pay a $200 annual fee for their license. Sound Exchange does charge internet and LPFM stations, but not Part 15 stations, a fee as well under a provison of the DMCA.
Marshall Johnson, Sr.
Senior Pastor, President
Rhema Christian Fellowship, Inc.
Rhema Radio – The Word In Worship
AM 1660 – FM 93.5
http://www.rhemaradio.org
Rattan says
Ok, folks, a few words.
Ok, folks, a few words. First off the RIAA, ASCAP, BMI and etc do *not* represent every artist. Regardless of how much they like to make it sound like they do, it simply is not true.
Many independent artists have nothing to do with them. For example, I’m an independent musicain, an “indie”.. and I have refused the RIAA and ASCAP’s offers to “represent me”, IF I join. Almost all major label artists pay to be members of those organizations. But many independent artists do not.
That doesn’t mean our work isn’t copyrighted or we can’t sue someone for using it without permission.. Just that we will make that decision for ourselves. RIAA/ASCAP/BMI/etc do not automatically have any business suing for an artist or “protecting their rights” unless you pay the fee and become a member. Big record companies do that automatically for the artists they produce, but there’s a lot of music out there that isn’t produced by the big companies.
Now, I can’t speak for all indie artists, but I and most of the ones I’ve asked have no problems with being played on someone’s streamcast, part15, etc.. I asked several in the past week, offering to get them out to some listeners, to tell them at least when I’d debut their material so they could listen in on the stream if they liked, and offering to tell them any audience reactions.. I didn’t get a single “no”.
A few wanted to be able to mention in their promo material that they were getting airplay, in return. Fine, and I’ll even throw in a good review that they are very welcome to use for their promotions. It’s automatically going to be a good review, since if I didn’t like their stuff, I wouldn’t be asking to play it!
I’ve never yet refused a request for permission to play my material, and probably would only have doubts if someone wanted to put it on a CD for sale or something. It’d be another matter entirely if someone tried putting out my material as *their own* creation, and that’s why I copyright my work.
ASCAP “offered” me membership twice and was turned down. They actually just aren’t much good for a small indie artist with a small fanbase. Most of the money collected from your CD sales would end up going to the “big names”. I consider it a scam.
Ok, so if you run indie music on your station, that means not being “all classic hits” or something.. But people can tune into any of the megawatt commercial stations next door to hear that! I don’t go to the effort of putting together my shows and playlists just to be a copy of the same stations I do my shows to be an alternative to.
Will anybody listen if you play music that’s not off the “top 40”? Well, I can’t say for sure. But back in the 70’s when I was in my teens, I found a (sorta) local indie station on the dial.. Signal was faint, they were a small station and a ways away. But it was music I’d never heard before, and it was good! I ended up bumming an old TV antenna from a neighbor and lugging it up a ladder and onto the roof to bolt it on the mast under our regular tv antenna and aiming it at that indie station *just* so I could get them in clear all the time. It was the main station I listened to for the next few *years*. Occassional rare stuff by bands in Europe and etc, lots of neat stories about bands I *did* know about, and so on. I was hooked. LOL
Maybe I was just one wierd kid. But maybe there’s more out there.
I usually play indie music on my shows unless I’m streaming strictly through a server/staion that pays all applicable fees *and* wants something like an oldies or classic rock format or whatever. Not my favorite gigs, though I’ve done some of those.
But there are alternatives to ASCAP/BMI/RIAA fees other than going to an “all-talk” format or something. At least most indie artists are likely to be quite willing (at least if you ask nicely) and especially if you promise to direct anyone who really likes their music to their website.
Now, you might have to hunt a bit, and listen to a fair bit of indie/underground music until you find enough that is good enough quality and that you like enough to make a whole playlist.. and it’ll take some emails to ask to use it.. But oh yes, it *can* be done.
Daniel
dat says
Licensing
As I am sure you guys know, BMI, ASCAP & SESAC represent the songwriters- not the artists. They all demand fees from part 15 operators…
Here’s BMIs license form: http://www.bmi.com/licensing/forms/part15_radio_license.pdf#search=%22bmi%20%22part%2015%22%22
ASCAP & SESAC should be contacted to receive their license.
Here’s why distributing your CD or show to a radio station via website has no need for licensing…
The only “public performance” is happening on the radio station’s end. If you pass protect the directory and use it as a way to distribute to radio stations- then, only the station needs the license. All three orgs only license public performance. There is no need for a license to syndicate your show- web or CD. Doesn’t matter.
That would be like if a Program Director friend of mine was looking for a particular song and I sent him a copy of it. I would not need to be licensed to do it.
NOW, if I sent it to anyone who wanted it, I’d not only have probs with BMI, ASCAP & SESAC; I’d also have probs with RIAA & SoundExchange.
If they tried to enforce a “public performance” rule in this matter, they would actually impede the public performance they would have had after the song- or show- arrived at the radio station. I wouldn’t send it and it wouldn’t get played on the radio station. The songwriters of these groups would abandon ship so quickly it would rock the entire music world.
Hopefully I haven’t lost you. I know it can be confusing. However, let it be said once more- neither BMI, ASCAP or SESAC wants to stop you from delivering your show- or songs- to a radio station. They only get paid when the song is played on the air.
kk7cw says
Could you please…
Could anyone please supply the information for ASCAP and SESAC that “demands” a Part 15 music license? I have yet to find it. I don’t want to call and ask because, that would be like showing fresh meat to a Tiger and asking if he’s hungry. Not only will I guarantee you will be feeding the Tiger the meat, but the likelyhood you will become part of the meal is high. We need to use a little wisdom here. Licensed broadcast and internet radio stations have clearly defined copyright licensing parameters. Part 15 operators don’t. Does “yardcasting” constitute “personal use? Where is the line that changes from personal use to public performance? Does it involve intent? Does it involve the intended audience? How does the operator or licensing agency determine the fee level? Is it based on cash flow, income, listenership or what? What device is used to measure and determine “use” and public performance?
And while you’re at it, it would be instructive to explain the differences between “royalties” and ” copyright license fees”.
Rev. Marshall Johnson, Sr.
Senior Pastor, President
Rhema Christian Fellowship, Inc.
Rhema Radio – The Word In Worship
AM 1660 – FM 93.5
http://www.rhemaradio.org
cairn says
Re: Licensing
[quote=dat]As I am sure you guys know, BMI, ASCAP & SESAC represent the songwriters- not the artists. They all demand fees from part 15 operators…
Here’s BMIs license form: http://www.bmi.com/licensing/forms/part15_radio_license.pdf#search=%22bmi%20%22part%2015%22%22
ASCAP & SESAC should be contacted to receive their license. [/quote]
That’s all absolutely true but I’d like to point out again that it is not necesarry to be licensed through ASCAP, BMI, or SESAC if you negotiate licensing with the artists themselves. The reason I keep saying “artists” and “bands” is because all of the bands I deal with write their own music or play traditional music for which there is no copyright; your right about the licensing agencies representing the songwriters and publishers.
[quote=dat]Here’s why distributing your CD or show to a radio station via website has no need for licensing…
The only “public performance” is happening on the radio station’s end. If you pass protect the directory and use it as a way to distribute to radio stations- then, only the station needs the license. All three orgs only license public performance. There is no need for a license to syndicate your show- web or CD. Doesn’t matter.
That would be like if a Program Director friend of mine was looking for a particular song and I sent him a copy of it. I would not need to be licensed to do it.
NOW, if I sent it to anyone who wanted it, I’d not only have probs with BMI, ASCAP & SESAC; I’d also have probs with RIAA & SoundExchange.[/quote]
That is absolutely false. The right to make copies of a sound recording is the exclusive right of the copyright holder. It doesn’t matter if you are making a copy of a song for a program director to play on his station or if you are making a copy for your friend to put on their mp3 player – either way you are making an illegal copy (and it is clearly not just for private use so I don’t think you can argue that it falls under a fair use exemption). If there is an explicit exemption within copyright law that allows Program Directors to make copies without being licensed to do so, then I would love to hear about it. I’ve been reading through the Title 17 US Code and I have yet to find such an exemption to allow such unlicensed copying and distribution. If someone does know of an exemption though, I’d love to know about it.
[quote=dat]If they tried to enforce a “public performance” rule in this matter, they would actually impede the public performance they would have had after the song- or show- arrived at the radio station. I wouldn’t send it and it wouldn’t get played on the radio station. The songwriters of these groups would abandon ship so quickly it would rock the entire music world.[/quote]
Well, the whole point of copyright is to impede the public performance (and copying and distribution) of sound recordings (at least the portions of copyright we’re talking about here; we’re obviously not covering other areas like written or dramatic works). A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that all artists want all of their songs to get any kind of exposure, all the time. I think that most artists (and their record labels which usually own the actualy copyright) would appreciate the free exposure, but copyright exists to protect the rights of the artists to determine how thier work is used. Copyright is supposed to impede the public performance (and copying and distribution) of works as a means of protecting the artists’ rights.
Furthermore, you are talking about two different aspects of licensing here. The ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC licenses only cover the public performance aspect of copyright, they have nothing to do with copying or distribution. You may be right in that ASCAP, BMI and SESAC don’t care where you get the music from, but the RIAA might care that you didn’t pay for the copy of the song that you are broadcasting. As far as I am aware, there is no blanket (compulsory/statutory) license that allows one to make copies and distribute them.
[quote=dat]Hopefully I haven’t lost you. I know it can be confusing. However, let it be said once more- neither BMI, ASCAP or SESAC wants to stop you from delivering your show- or songs- to a radio station. They only get paid when the song is played on the air.[/quote]
I’m just nit-picking here, but this isn’t technically true either. If you as a part 15 station pay your $200 for a one year blanket license through BMI, then BMI gets that $200 even if you don’t play a single track by any artist that BMI represents. BMI does use lists of tracks that stations play to figure out how to distribute the artists’ share among those they represent, but BMI gets their money either way. You are right that ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC definitely want you to pay those license fees for public performances though!
Dave, you clearly have a lot of experience in the radio world and I respect that you are willing to share your experience with us. I would really like to know if you are aware of any exemption in copyright law that allows someone (a program director, for example) to distribute copys of songs without an explicit license. I think it would help a lot of us to be able to cite such an exemption and be able to freely distribute programming among part 15 stations.
And to T.ALLRED, sorry if we’re hijacking your thread! I hope you are finding this discussion informative.
dat says
Wait a minute….
The challenge in licensing every song through each band is that it’s gonna limit your format choices. If you want to play the big hits, it’s gonna get expensive.
Again, ASCAP, BMI & SESAC license “public performaces. The RIAA handles distribution.
I have worked in radio for 24 years and have lots of experience in this matter. What’s more, I currently syndicate my show.
Under the rules of distribution you are speaking about, wouldn’t it be illegal to record a song in the production room and upload it to the studio? That would create an additional copy. God forbid you are uploading to more than one in a cluster.
Sure- the RIAA rules are vague when it comes to sharing music. However, it doesn’t require a music license for a corporate PD to send a copy of the hot new song to his program directors- whether hard copy or via email.
Why not?
Because- believe it or not- the record companies (who are themselves members of the RIAA) DO want radio stations to play their songs. I have been a PD & Regional PD and can share stories of record company hacks filling up my voicemail with “please play our song” messages. Without airplay, music doesn’t sell.
Sundicated shows are unique in that they often play music that isn’t getting aired on traditional 300 song playlists. BMI, ASCAP & SESAC do not consider it a “public performance” if you are sending your show to stations. It isn’t public until the station airs it. Thousands of dollars in my legal fees verify this.
The RIAA, however, could get involved if they thought there was a large enough problem. That problem would have to entail sending out copies to hundreds of people in a free-for-all style. Basically flaunting it to them.
I agree, we all want to know the scoop- and I do not claim to be an expert on music law. I will tell you that:
RIAA governs distribution of the actual audio file.
BMI, SESAC & ASCAP govern the actual playing of the file.
**Finally, the reason why you don’t see hard fast rules on part 15 music licensing is because they’re hard to enforce. For instance-
What if you had a radio playing the background while a “baby monitor” or cordless phone was transmitting. Both are part 15 devices. Or- what if you plugged an FM modulator into an Ipod to listen on your radio. Hard to enforce.
I bet the difference is when there’s evidence that your part 15 rig is attempting to be heard by the masses. If you act like a radio station, they will treat you like a radio station.
I could be wrong- but I bet I’m not.
Your opinions are welcome.
cairn says
Thanks
Thanks again for the reply, Dave! I agree with everything in your post. I’d like to add one comment to this, though:
[quote=dat]Under the rules of distribution you are speaking about, wouldn’t it be illegal to record a song in the production room and upload it to the studio? That would create an additional copy. God forbid you are uploading to more than one in a cluster.
Sure- the RIAA rules are vague when it comes to sharing music. However, it doesn’t require a music license for a corporate PD to send a copy of the hot new song to his program directors- whether hard copy or via email.[/quote]
My take on these two examples is that they are allowed under Fair Use exemptions. Format-shifting for private use has been upheld as a legal exemption to copyright law. If it’s all in-house, I think your protected. If you begin to distribute those copies to other parties (as in syndication), then you’d better be licensed to do so.
Thanks for your insights.
T.ALLRED says
Thanks for the info.
I really do appreciate all this information. I think I’ve understood everything, but to be on the safe side, I’ll just postpone my ‘syndacation’ idea. Thanks for the great info.
Travis Allred,
AM 1570 WHTR
radioboy says
Hi Travis,
You have a good
Hi Travis,
You have a good idea with the syndicated radio show. I
ran a syndicated Christian Country show for a number of years with no problems.
One of the things you might want to do is provide a music playlist with your show if and when you ever start it up.
I am still in Tallahassee and still have a country format. I
play a mix of old and new country and also stream it via Live365:
http://www.live365.com/stations/alanmccall
I noticed in the forums that a gentleman named Nick started a similar program aimed at jazz stations. You might want to contact him, explain what you want to do, and ask him
questions that might point you in the right direction.
Good luck Travis,
Alan
jerry robert mason says
Your New Show Idea!
As an ex Program Manager let me suggest to you a music span of 50’s to and thru the 80’s. 90’s music is covered on many of the high power stations and though Real Country is available out there for syndication to licensed stations they have moved their focus from 50’s thru 80’s to 70’s to 90’s.
So you see your idea with a little shift to earlier years where Real Country was will definitely fill the void.
Any help I can give this show,let me know and good luck with this great idea!
Best Regards,
Jerry Robert Mason